Official: Arsenal sign Jorginho for £12M

[FrankLampard8]

On 11/03/2023 at 01:13, kev61 said:

 Really?Would you say we are/were a top level team?.

I would say we are/were the epitome of a free ride for many players, that's why we are top heavy with crap players that are on a fortune who we can't get rid.

 

We have only just recently been European and World Champions?! 🥴

[Bert19]

On 10/03/2023 at 09:55, FrankLampard8 said:

Well you could argue that this period has actually been successful for a club the size of Spurs. When was the last time they consistently qualified for Europe?

I know this is probably a hot take but you oculd also argue that for all the goals he has scored and the hype he gets... maybe Spurs and England not winning anything in part down to Kane? He's been part of some very good teams and I think if he was really that good he'd have got them over the line at least once - look at what Gerrard did on occasion with the scousers. 

Interesting point.  

I said when he missed that penalty against France (and subsequently failed to break the goalscoring record) that Kane going on to break the record in a meaningless Nations League game against a nothing team would sum his England career up well. Smashes weak teams, fails to deliver when it really counts. 

On 11/03/2023 at 01:13, kev61 said:

 Really?Would you say we are/were a top level team?.

I would say we are/were the epitome of a free ride for many players, that's why we are top heavy with crap players that are on a fortune who we can't get rid.

 

Definitely agree with this. We've had some recent success, but with a more serious approach by our recent squads, we would have 3 or 4 more domestic cups in our trophy cabinet. 

[kev61]

19 hours ago, FrankLampard8 said:

We have only just recently been European and World Champions?! 🥴

How lovely,and now we are European and World chumps.

Having said that,it is not beyond the realms of possibility we could beat Madrid and then anything is possible.

[FrankLampard8]

4 hours ago, kev61 said:

How lovely,and now we are European and World chumps.

Having said that,it is not beyond the realms of possibility we could beat Madrid and then anything is possible.

What I was alluding to is we were quite clearly a top level team. What we are now, I have no idea. I still think there is a lot of talent there and it's not being maximised. Who knows what we would be with a competent hand on the wheel. 

[Mark Kelly]

31 minutes ago, FrankLampard8 said:

What I was alluding to is we were quite clearly a top level team. What we are now, I have no idea. I still think there is a lot of talent there and it's not being maximised. Who knows what we would be with a competent hand on the wheel. 

We're a mid table, decent cup run side now. 

[FrankLampard8]

1 hour ago, Mark Kelly said:

We're a mid table, decent cup run side now. 

Yes and no. Obviously we are currently and I can't argue that. However, I believe we would be in or around the top 4 this season with the level of manager we were accustomed to in the past. 

[Mark Kelly]

35 minutes ago, FrankLampard8 said:

Yes and no. Obviously we are currently and I can't argue that. However, I believe we would be in or around the top 4 this season with the level of manager we were accustomed to in the past. 

I agree but Potter is here until at least half way through next season I fear by which time we will have cemented our place as also rans

[Bert19]

2 hours ago, Mark Kelly said:

We're a mid table, decent cup run side now. 

Have we had any decent cup runs then? 😄

[ROTG]

Should the arse win the league. 
jorginho will have some CV since his move from Italy 

If my memory serves me has won every trophy except the League and FA cup where he made the final and lost. 

[kev61]

7 hours ago, ROTG said:

Should the arse win the league. 
jorginho will have some CV since his move from Italy 

If my memory serves me has won every trophy except the League and FA cup where he made the final and lost. 

Yes indeed.It shows that luck can play a big part in an individual's cv

Just look at Kylie Minogue - a world music superstar my 'ass' which I will always remember her for(sorry If that sounds sexist)

An average player can look good in a good team - a good player can look average in a bad team.I think that's the bridge we have to cross now  with a mixture of wheat and chaff.

I remember people saying we need to give avb time...lol.People saying saf was close to tipping point...yes he was,but not after a club investment of half a billion pounds on players.

Boehly will need to realise that a manager in today's premiership has imo 6 months to prove themselves.All they need to do is to look back at at our success in recent years.A large part was to sack managers that didn't perform quickly enough.

Having said all that,the players should take most of the blame hence Conte's outburst.

 

[Michael Tucker]

16 minutes ago, kev61 said:

Yes indeed.It shows that luck can play a big part in an individual's cv

I could also show that he knows what he's doing?

16 minutes ago, kev61 said:

Just look at Kylie Minogue - a world music superstar my 'ass' which I will always remember her for(sorry If that sounds sexist)

Sorry mate, but you've lost me! The singing budgie rules😜

16 minutes ago, kev61 said:

Boehly will need to realise that a manager in today's premiership has imo 6 months to prove themselves.All they need to do is to look back at at our success in recent years.A large part was to sack managers that didn't perform quickly enough.

This.

16 minutes ago, kev61 said:

Having said all that,the players should take most of the blame 

Quite.

[kev61]

I find it incredible that clearlake are sticking with Potter.An investment company realises that they  have made a mistake and quickly rectifies it.

There is no doubt in my my mind clearlake would like to pull the plug on Potter but what happens after that?

[Ham]

5 hours ago, kev61 said:

I find it incredible that clearlake are sticking with Potter.An investment company realises that they  have made a mistake and quickly rectifies it.

There is no doubt in my my mind clearlake would like to pull the plug on Potter but what happens after that?

They paid £21m just to get him out of his Brighton contract and then there's his, and his team's wage contracts over however many years.

He'd have to go full Conte and also get relegated to lose his job. 

[Sciatika]

Most investment companies concentrate on the longer term.

[paulw66]

6 hours ago, kev61 said:

 

Boehly will need to realise that a manager in today's premiership has imo 6 months to prove themselves.All they need to do is to look back at at our success in recent years. A large part was to sack managers that didn't perform quickly enough.

 

Yes, and no.

Disclaimer, this is not a dig at our previous owner

Roman was in charge for 19 years. We won 5 PL titles, 2 of which came in his first 3 years. So we won 3 in the subsequent 16 seasons, and came close* another 4 times (07,08,09,14)

*(in terms of points)

We will never know the answer to what may have happened if any of the sacked managers had been given a longer term brief...... Would Roman have fired a manager who came in, spent a load of money and finished 3rd, 15 points behind the Champions? Possibly. That's Pep. 

Would a manager, making decisions without the sword of Damocles hanging over their head, have been able to nurture Salah and De Bruyne over a 2 or 3 year period, rather than dispensing with them and signing ready made players instead? Appreciate I am cherry picking a little, but from around 2011 (when we sacked Carlo) to 2014, we signed, amongst others, Hazard, Mata, Oscar, de Bruyne, Salah, Lukaku*, and Courtois (all for relative pennies).......imagine if Ancellotti had still been around and given those young players?  

*ignoring what happened since his return, but from when we signed Lukaku in 2011, to the point of his return in 2021, we bought, in no particular order, Ba, Eto'o, Remy, Costa, Falcao, Pato, Traore, Morata, Higuain, Giroud, and Werner. Two success stories in that lot?

 

Like I say, not a criticism, but there is often more than one way to look at things. And no, I am not saying Potter is in the same league as Ancellotti, it's more of a general point about whether booting a failing manager after a few months is always the right route. 

 

[FrankLampard8]

3 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

 Appreciate I am cherry picking a little, but from around 2011 (when we sacked Carlo) to 2014, we signed, amongst others, Hazard, Mata, Oscar, de Bruyne, Salah, Lukaku*, and Courtois (all for relative pennies).......imagine if Ancellotti had still been around and given those young players?  

*ignoring what happened since his return, but from when we signed Lukaku in 2011, to the point of his return in 2021, we bought, in no particular order, Ba, Eto'o, Remy, Costa, Falcao, Pato, Traore, Morata, Higuain, Giroud, and Werner. Two success stories in that lot?

I don't think Ancelotti was the manager to nurture that talent. He has built a bit of a reputation as a bit of superstar whisperer. The team he won the league with here where he could let the big personalities play was much more his forte. Mata, Oscar and De Bruyne was a prime example of us buying players without any discernible plan - there were always likely to be casualties because all 3 players wanted to be a number 10 really.  Mata was the guy and Oscar worked so hard for the team that I can understand how any coach would let De Bruyne slip through the cracks at that stage.

3 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

*ignoring what happened since his return, but from when we signed Lukaku in 2011, to the point of his return in 2021, we bought, in no particular order, Ba, Eto'o, Remy, Costa, Falcao, Pato, Traore, Morata, Higuain, Giroud, and Werner. Two success stories in that lot?

I think more than two successes here if you add context for the expectations when they were signed. For instance, I think Remy signed as a back up did an ok job for the fee. Giroud was a success. Costa was absolutely brilliant. I don't think Ba was ever supposed to be THE guy and was more of a convenient stop gap and as such did ok from what I remember. You could even argue the same for Eto'o.  So I think 4 or 5 of those could be classed as successes.

[paulw66]

12 minutes ago, FrankLampard8 said:

 

I think more than two successes here if you add context for the expectations when they were signed. For instance, I think Remy signed as a back up did an ok job for the fee. Giroud was a success. Costa was absolutely brilliant. I don't think Ba was ever supposed to be THE guy and was more of a convenient stop gap and as such did ok from what I remember. You could even argue the same for Eto'o.  So I think 4 or 5 of those could be classed as successes.

In context, the point I was making was would Lukaku had scored less than players like Ba, Eto'o, Remy etc even if you count those as moderate success stories? 

In 2013/14 we finished only 4 points behind Champions Man City, who scored 102 goals to our 71.

Eto'o got 9 , Torres, 5, Ba 5.  Between the 3 of them, they scored 5 goals away from home. (0,3,2). 

Lukaku scored 15 PL goals that season on loan at Everton. If he'd had been with us, who knows what might have happened. We'll never know the answer. 

12 minutes ago, FrankLampard8 said:

I don't think Ancelotti was the manager to nurture that talent.

Ok, but AN Other. It was more of a general point about giving a manager a longer time frame, whether than specifically saying he was the one to do it. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by paulw66

[kev61]

On 23/03/2023 at 09:30, Sciatika said:

Most investment companies concentrate on the longer term.

They do indeed but in between they buy and sell.As a long term prospect in Potter they should sell sell sell!.

[kev61]

On 23/03/2023 at 09:55, paulw66 said:

Yes, and no.

 

 

Well that's as clear as mud.Sorry Paul but it's like a train spotter that has been on a train.

[kev61]

2 minutes ago, kev61 said:

Well that's as clear as mud.Sorry Paul but it's like a train spotter that hasn't been on a train.

 

[kev61]

3 minutes ago, kev61 said:

 

 

[Sciatika]

6 hours ago, kev61 said:

They do indeed but in between they buy and sell.As a long term prospect in Potter they should sell sell sell!.

I think you are confusing speculators who seek opportunities to enter and exit the market in order to get profit for a quick turnaround (e.g. someone like Soros) and investment companies who seek to build value over the long term. The latter base their decisions on strategies that seek to achieve a particular position in the future with the least risk. Often that means accepting short term losses and even seeking paths that do not maximise short term gains.

All the same, there may be value in considering your analogy with respect to Potter. As investment people, Clearwater et al. are likely to be considering the long-term prospects for the business. They will be focusing on things like squad building, increasing match day revenues, facilities and so on. But, in the longer term, they will be looking to enhance the assets they have acquired (and to grow their value) through ancilliary business. I expect to see them pushing lots of partnership deals especially those that focus on building different kinds of customer relationships in the worldwide base of fans. From that perspective, Potter is only a very small component, but one they will try to stick with because they know the value of stability in a (currently) very unstable world.

[paulw66]

13 hours ago, kev61 said:

Well that's as clear as mud.Sorry Paul but it's like a train spotter that has been on a train.

let me make it clearer.

I believe some of the success was down to the quick sacking of managers

I also believe this was a cause of some failings.

[chara]

7 hours ago, Sciatika said:

I think you are confusing speculators who seek opportunities to enter and exit the market in order to get profit for a quick turnaround (e.g. someone like Soros) and investment companies who seek to build value over the long term. The latter base their decisions on strategies that seek to achieve a particular position in the future with the least risk. Often that means accepting short term losses and even seeking paths that do not maximise short term gains.

All the same, there may be value in considering your analogy with respect to Potter. As investment people, Clearwater et al. are likely to be considering the long-term prospects for the business. They will be focusing on things like squad building, increasing match day revenues, facilities and so on. But, in the longer term, they will be looking to enhance the assets they have acquired (and to grow their value) through ancilliary business. I expect to see them pushing lots of partnership deals especially those that focus on building different kinds of customer relationships in the worldwide base of fans. From that perspective, Potter is only a very small component, but one they will try to stick with because they know the value of stability in a (currently) very unstable world.

Thank you Sciatika for the usual sensible informative post...my only question whilst accepting all you write... I worry that in the present situation case stability means mid table mediocracy with GP or similar in charge of the playing side.

[Holymoly]

41 minutes ago, chara said:

I worry that in the present situation case stability means mid table mediocracy with GP or similar in charge of the playing side

Back in the Abramovich era we sacked managers but we had the continuity of the players. Today you could argue that the only regulars with any sort of Chelsea identity are James and Chilwell and both of them spend more time injured than actually playing. If we go back to sacking managers every 18 months (on a good day) then we are going to end up with a club entirely dislocated from its supporters.