Kai Havertz

[martin1905]

3 minutes ago, ROTG said:

He will go to RM and become the WC player we know is there, because RM will build a team around him.
 

IMO he is the nearest thing to LeTissier I have seen on these shores. 

For sure, I could see him going there and being a much better player, mainly due to the lack of physicality and the extra time he will have on the ball but where I once thought he could go on to be one of the very best in the world I just can't see it anymore.

His end product is just not good enough.

[Mark Kelly]

10 minutes ago, ROTG said:

He will go to RM and become the WC player we know is there, because RM will build a team around him.
 

IMO he is the nearest thing to LeTissier I have seen on these shores. 

Exactly like him: Just without these bits.

 

[FrankLampard8]

1 hour ago, ROTG said:

He will go to RM and become the WC player we know is there, because RM will build a team around him.
 

IMO he is the nearest thing to LeTissier I have seen on these shores. 

I can see no way in hell that Real would be willing to build a team around this guy. Based on what evidence? The guy is just not at that standard. 

[flllerywhereru2]

i see that a lot of people seem to pin our lack of goals on Havertz which is a shame really. He doesnt score enough to be the centre forward for Chelsea and is a scorer of good goals rather than a good goalscorer. But I do feel there is some downplaying of the guys ability here, I think the teamsa struggles are making him look aworse player than he is especially as he is not and never was an out and out centre forward. As an example of how people have lost patience lets compare the kind of comments re Felix hitting the bar at Dortmund and on saturday to Havertz doing the same against fulham-comments like he should score there for instance. At the moment Felix isnt the focus for our frustration.

I agree that Hvertz has not kicked on as expected but there is a good player in there who may well have to go to Bayern or someone else before we realise how good he could be. Morata is another one, not a long term solution for us and a target for the boo boys but he is a classy forward.

 

[ROTG]

2 hours ago, flllerywhereru2 said:

.I agree that Hvertz has not kicked on as expected but there is a good player in there who may well have to go to Bayern or someone else before we realise how good he could be. Morata is another one, not a long term solution for us and a target for the boo boys but he is a classy forward.

 

His Stats are not as bad as the boo boys elude too , one can only assume he's the flavour of the month

His goal ratio has gone for 1 in 3 in Bayer to 1 in 4 at Chelsea. Also his position in  Bayer was  an attacking midfielder not a CF.

The other stats indicate how his form has deteriorated under Team GP

 

[chara]

Part of the "Lost Three" meant to carry Frank forward....such a disappointing trio for Chelsea as shown over certainly long enough to make fair judgement of all three in the EPL.

Always had that Ossie languid look except with Ossie it was far more than just a "look"..H seems to be the look and no substance...an RLC mk 2 ...all promise and occasional sublime end product.

I'm sure he will go elsewhere and be far more effective but for Chelsea a lost cause imho.

The "I'm sure there is a player in there" archetypical player.

 

 

[Bison]

10 hours ago, ROTG said:

He will go to RM and become the WC player we know is there, because RM will build a team around him.
 

IMO he is the nearest thing to LeTissier I have seen on these shores. 

Genuinely laughing out loud at this.

Havertz will not only go to Real Madrid but have the team built around him?  

Thanks, needed that laugh after a long day.

[ROTG]

12 hours ago, Bison said:

Genuinely laughing out loud at this.

Havertz will not only go to Real Madrid but have the team built around him?  

Thanks, needed that laugh after a long day.

only time will tell who going to have the last laugh on Havertz

[flllerywhereru2]

1 hour ago, ROTG said:

only time will tell who going to have the last laugh on Havertz

This is a curious thing with the modern football fan with all the stats and wall to wall coverage available, there seem to be those who value being proved right re a player/manager above the success of the team. You see it at the moment with Mount and Havertz two players who were integral to a Champions league win and a fairly successful defence of that title/ World club cup win and people are ready to throw them in the bin due to a less successful season for the team.  The same kinds of people will soon be whining should Mount go to say Liverpool and win the league. I sometimes wonder what people would have made of some of our all time greats like Osgood and Dixon who had fallow periods.

[FrankLampard8]

8 minutes ago, flllerywhereru2 said:

This is a curious thing with the modern football fan with all the stats and wall to wall coverage available, there seem to be those who value being proved right re a player/manager above the success of the team. You see it at the moment with Mount and Havertz two players who were integral to a Champions league win and a fairly successful defence of that title/ World club cup win and people are ready to throw them in the bin due to a less successful season for the team.  The same kinds of people will soon be whining should Mount go to say Liverpool and win the league. I sometimes wonder what people would have made of some of our all time greats like Osgood and Dixon who had fallow periods.

Havertz isn't having a fallow period though is he? Has he even had a purple patch in his time here? I dno't think anyone is saying he is completely useless but equally he isn't up to the standards we aspire to and is very unlikely to be a key component at any of Europe's top top clubs. 

[asvaberg]

18 hours ago, ROTG said:

His goal ratio has gone for 1 in 3 in Bayer to 1 in 4 at Chelsea. Also his position in  Bayer was  an attacking midfielder not a CF.

 

So why don't we simply try and switch place Havertz vs. Felix................It's definately worth a try.

[FrankLampard8]

21 minutes ago, asvaberg said:

So why don't we simply try and switch place Havertz vs. Felix................It's definately worth a try.

Maybe but I also think it's a bit reductionist to think there is much difference in how they are being asked to play. Kai isn't exactly up against the centre halves and running off the last man all game long is he? They both have licence to drop to get the ball and they both have licence to burst forward when the moment is right. 

[flllerywhereru2]

1 hour ago, FrankLampard8 said:

Havertz isn't having a fallow period though is he? Has he even had a purple patch in his time here? I dno't think anyone is saying he is completely useless but equally he isn't up to the standards we aspire to and is very unlikely to be a key component at any of Europe's top top clubs. 

He has never been a regular scorer in the sense that a striker would but that only backs up that he is a number 10 who drifts behind a striker. His movement is very clever, just perhaps not the movement of a centre forward. The fact that we rarely play an early cross/through ball doesnt help him or whoever plays in there imo-i remember the same being said about Lukaku last season. Havertz whilst not a Mane doesnt at least try and close people down unlike Lukaku and Abamuyang.

[ROTG]

3 hours ago, flllerywhereru2 said:

This is a curious thing with the modern football fan with all the stats and wall to wall coverage available, there seem to be those who value being proved right re a player/manager above the success of the team. You see it at the moment with Mount and Havertz two players who were integral to a Champions league win and a fairly successful defence of that title/ World club cup win and people are ready to throw them in the bin due to a less successful season for the team.  The same kinds of people will soon be whining should Mount go to say Liverpool and win the league. I sometimes wonder what people would have made of some of our all time greats like Osgood and Dixon who had fallow periods.

If the club had a top draw coaching team  and they did not perform there would be a string case to bin them, unfortunately all the club have is a coaching team which has regressed the entire playing staff

[FrankLampard8]

2 hours ago, flllerywhereru2 said:

He has never been a regular scorer in the sense that a striker would but that only backs up that he is a number 10 who drifts behind a striker. His movement is very clever, just perhaps not the movement of a centre forward. The fact that we rarely play an early cross/through ball doesnt help him or whoever plays in there imo-i remember the same being said about Lukaku last season. Havertz whilst not a Mane doesnt at least try and close people down unlike Lukaku and Abamuyang.

I just don't think clever movement is enough to build a team around him and that's essentially what you're asking to do if we play him at number 10. It's nothing to do with the service he gets because a good number 10 takes what he is given and makes things happen for the team.  The issue is, I don't think he is a very creative passer and he never really goes past someone even when he has open grass in front of him (Sule getting back in and making a recovery tackle away in Dortmund when he should have been through 1 on 1 comes to mind). 

Again, I actually quite like Kai and i've defended him at times but I do think maybe his level is star player for the level below the top. A good Champion's League club but not one that's consistently aiming to win it. Just my opinion. 

[My Blood Is Blue]

So, Kai… where have performances like this been? This is what’s so frustrating about this guy, he can be so good, but 95% of the time he isn’t. Great performance last night though.

[exiledblue]

1 hour ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

So, Kai… where have performances like this been? This is what’s so frustrating about this guy, he can be so good, but 95% of the time he isn’t. Great performance last night though.

and balls of steel for the retake

[xceleryx]

2 hours ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

So, Kai… where have performances like this been? This is what’s so frustrating about this guy, he can be so good, but 95% of the time he isn’t. Great performance last night though.

A big thing for me was that he was able to drop deep a lot into more of that #10 type of position to receive the ball, while we had Sterling sort of push right up on the shoulder of the last man. The formation change creates a bit more central space compared to the back four we had before as Joao Felix would occupy that area behind the striker, where in this one he's got more freedom to drift wider himself or push up. 

All of this seemed to favour Havertz a lot more, as he does play with his back to goal fairly well for someone that isn't a natural striker. 

Would be curious to see how he'd look flanked by Sterling and Mudryk sitting high and wide. Would kinda replicate Liverpool's Firmino, Salah and Mane front three, especially if we opt for a more counter-attacking style.

[Box of Tricks]

Le Tissier got mentioned in this thread and he always said that when Alan Ball took over at Southampton, he made him central to his plans and he had the best 18 months of his career.

Potter has stuck with Havertz through a lot on thin and he got his reward last night. I just hope something has clicked rather than it being a one off Champions League thing.

[ROTG]

30 minutes ago, xceleryx said:

Would kinda replicate Liverpool's Firmino, Salah and Mane front three, especially if we opt for a more counter-attacking style.

 Chelsea replicating the dippers style.
 

Go and say twelve Hail Mary’s and get those blasphemous thoughts out of your head 

[Blue Moon]

… And wash your typing fingers in carbolic. Disgraceful.

[xceleryx]

55 minutes ago, ROTG said:

 Chelsea replicating the dippers style.
 

Go and say twelve Hail Mary’s and get those blasphemous thoughts out of your head 

If it gets results I couldn't care who we replicate, winning is winning. 

Plus, if we do it better than sweet  sweet bragging rights. 😂

[Sleeping Dave]

1 hour ago, xceleryx said:

A big thing for me was that he was able to drop deep a lot into more of that #10 type of position to receive the ball, while we had Sterling sort of push right up on the shoulder of the last man. The formation change creates a bit more central space compared to the back four we had before as Joao Felix would occupy that area behind the striker, where in this one he's got more freedom to drift wider himself or push up. 

All of this seemed to favour Havertz a lot more, as he does play with his back to goal fairly well for someone that isn't a natural striker. 

Would be curious to see how he'd look flanked by Sterling and Mudryk sitting high and wide. Would kinda replicate Liverpool's Firmino, Salah and Mane front three, especially if we opt for a more counter-attacking style.

I agree with this completely. Havertz is not a Drogba type of a striker - he is much more of a floating presence who needs license to roam. So if he is to play as the number 9 I reckon it shoul dbe in line with a false 9 then anything else - a bit like Totti at Roma or Firmino at Liverpool. 

The trick is then to have the "wingers" to play higher and more centrally in order for us to not lose presence in the middle, this is where I think we have been found wanting this season. We are way too static in our positioning when attacking. More fluidity, more movement and many of our deficiencies will be solved. 

Which then begs the question, what to do with Mount? Personally I think Mount should only play at CM (#8). No more of this playing as a "winger" business - keep him in midfield. 

433

                         Mendy

James Silva Fofana Chilwell

                           Enzo

      Kovacic                 Mount

    Felix       Havertz     Sterling

 

343

                      Mendy

    Fofana   Silva  Badiashile

James Enzo Mount Chilwell

       Felix  Havertz  Sterling

 

[xceleryx]

8 minutes ago, Sleeping Dave said:

I agree with this completely. Havertz is not a Drogba type of a striker - he is much more of a floating presence who needs license to roam. So if he is to play as the number 9 I reckon it shoul dbe in line with a false 9 then anything else - a bit like Totti at Roma or Firmino at Liverpool. 

The trick is then to have the "wingers" to play higher and more centrally in order for us to not lose presence in the middle, this is where I think we have been found wanting this season. We are way too static in our positioning when attacking. More fluidity, more movement and many of our deficiencies will be solved. 

Which then begs the question, what to do with Mount? Personally I think Mount should only play at CM (#8). No more of this playing as a "winger" business - keep him in midfield. 

433

                         Mendy

James Silva Fofana Chilwell

                           Enzo

      Kovacic                 Mount

    Felix       Havertz     Sterling

 

343

                      Mendy

    Fofana   Silva  Badiashile

James Enzo Mount Chilwell

       Felix  Havertz  Sterling

 

Re Havertz: A false 9 of sorts is the likely to be the best use of him, but again still requires the right pieces in other areas to truly make visible as a whole.

Re Mount: Honesty, I'm not sure where he fits these days. He's not dynamic enough to play higher up in attack because ultimately he's a central player that's limited out wide. However, he's also not looked great most of the time he's been asked to play as a CM either. He'd also need to massively pump up his production, otherwise we're going to maintain the problem of having a midfield that provides little of anything higher up the pitch which is what we've had with Kova, Kante and Jorginho. 

As for the lineups  themselves you've put forward, Mendy shouldn't be kicking a football for us again. Not only is he awful and a liability with the ball at feet, he's also slow off his line and lacks the sweeping abilities. There's just no way we can focus playing out from the back and have full confidence in using him as a genuine outlet, he's shown that already. Kepa is rightfully #1 and has done nothing worthy of being dropped. 

Enzo for now is our best deeper option but at the end of the day he'll hopefully get a better partner next season that'll sit and allow him the freedoms necessary to be fully maximised. 

I also wouldn't partner Mount and Enzo in  a double pivot, that's got disaster written all over it. Mount is actually rather unimpressive defensively as a CM despite being quite good as a pressing type of attacker higher up. All his defensive numbers noise dive playing in midfield which simply isn't good enough as a double pivot where realistically both players need to be accountable. 

[jasonb]

I think Mount can see the writing on the wall.

Havertz's skill set may overlap with Mount's yet Havertz's skill set with heading ability means he is more likely to play.

Felix is also very technical and dynamic and capable of scoring or providing assists.  

Sterling is our front player most likely to score with his clever footwork.

Neither is Mount a clear midfielder and with Enzo, Kovacic and Zakaria he may be in fourth place.

I haven't mentioned Mudryk or Gallagher yet they also compete with Mount for places.

I think if Mount can get a decent move then kudos to him.