Official: Chelsea sign Enzo Fernandez on an Eight and a Half Year Contract

[boratsbrother]

4 hours ago, xceleryx said:

Not everything has to be about goals and assists either.

Modric's only ever clocked more than 5 assists in a La Liga campaign in 5 of his 12 seasons there I believe, and he's also never been a prolific goalscorer either. You certainly wouldn't discredit his quality because he's not swimming in two statistical areas that are hugely dependant on the role being asked to perform. And he's had some of the finest players in support to play with.

Enzo's someone that'll instigate a lot of good play, collecting hockey assists if you will, rather than seeing his own goal and assist columns profit directly. He's not anything like a KDB, Gundogan or Bruno so they're terrible comparisons to be making initially.

I'm always prepared to admit to being  proven wrong and those very surprising stats for Modric certainly do that. 

He has undoubtably been one of the greatest midfielders of his era and his stats to prove that a non defensive midfielder doesn't need lots of assists and goals to be a great midfielder.

Having said that. I do still think that a midfield of Enzo, Caisedo and Lavia is a combination which will cause us issues in terms of goals. 

Let's say that next season we have our forwards fully fit for most of the season. We get 15 league goals from Jackson, 20 from Sterling, say 10 from Nkunku and maybe another 10 from Mudryk. I'm sure most of us would think those numbers would be a good return and be happy with that number of goals. However, if we are to ever challenge at the top again those kind numbers won't be anywhere near enough. To challenge again  we'll almost certainly need to top 80-85 goals.  Where are those extra goals going to come from?

[Ham]

18 minutes ago, boratsbrother said:

I'm always prepared to admit to being  proven wrong and those very surprising stats for Modric certainly do that. 

He has undoubtably been one of the greatest midfielders of his era and his stats to prove that a non defensive midfielder doesn't need lots of assists and goals to be a great midfielder.

Having said that. I do still think that a midfield of Enzo, Caisedo and Lavia is a combination which will cause us issues in terms of goals. 

Let's say that next season we have our forwards fully fit for most of the season. We get 15 league goals from Jackson, 20 from Sterling, say 10 from Nkunku and maybe another 10 from Mudryk. I'm sure most of us would think those numbers would be a good return and be happy with that number of goals. However, if we are to ever challenge at the top again those kind numbers won't be anywhere near enough. To challenge again  we'll almost certainly need to top 80-85 goals.  Where are those extra goals going to come from?

Colwill is going to be an important part of that with key passes to Jackson, Chilwell, Maatsen and eventually Nkunku. 

His highlights reel of key passes already, after 3 games, is insane. 

[xceleryx]

13 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

I'm always prepared to admit to being  proven wrong and those very surprising stats for Modric certainly do that. 

He has undoubtably been one of the greatest midfielders of his era and his stats to prove that a non defensive midfielder doesn't need lots of assists and goals to be a great midfielder.

Having said that. I do still think that a midfield of Enzo, Caisedo and Lavia is a combination which will cause us issues in terms of goals. 

Let's say that next season we have our forwards fully fit for most of the season. We get 15 league goals from Jackson, 20 from Sterling, say 10 from Nkunku and maybe another 10 from Mudryk. I'm sure most of us would think those numbers would be a good return and be happy with that number of goals. However, if we are to ever challenge at the top again those kind numbers won't be anywhere near enough. To challenge again  we'll almost certainly need to top 80-85 goals.  Where are those extra goals going to come from?

Honestly, even I was a little shocked with Modric's numbers but he's the sort of midfielder that Enzo has the potential to emulate in a lot of ways. 

Having a goal shy midfield isn't necessarily ideal by any means, but a lot of it will also hinge on what our attack does. If they're all contributing a good amount of goals then getting them from midfield is less of a concern. If the attack however flounders, like it has the last few years, then that slack has to be picked up elsewhere and having a barren midfield will compound matters further. 

Obviously having midfield options that can contribute in this way is more ideal, but if the attack is doing their job and we're still getting the sort of goals we've generally had from the likes of Chilwell, RJ and maybe a defender or two getting a couple themselves we'll make those numbers up. 

Still think Enzo is capable of getting 5 a season at least, but it'll be something he'll hopefully grow into more and may not necessarily be seen immediately. 

[Bert19]

I went to the game on Friday night.  First time since Salzburg last year.  First time i'd seen Enzo live. 

 

We have a seriously good player on our hands. 

[xceleryx]

[JaneB]

Did anyone see that 'flick' from Enzo playing for Argentina last night?

[Mark Kelly]

19 minutes ago, JaneB said:

Did anyone see that 'flick' from Enzo playing for Argentina last night?

Yep , we have a talent on our hands if he doesn't leave in January ( as the Daily Mail and hard of thinking seem to believe is going to happen) 

[Bison]

I've revised my opinion on Enzo quite a bit over the past year. There is no doubt he's a very capable passer but even that seems to have regressed somewhat.

I'm just not sure how we can function well as a team with a midfielder who can't run, doesn't defend well and doesn't score enough goals.

He isn't a #10 and Pochettino seemingly doesn't use him deeper in midfield due to his lack of legs and defensive ability.

So what's the plan moving forward?

[boratsbrother]

The sensible way forward is to try and sell him before his valuation falls through the floor, as it will do if he stays and  plays like this. Already his valuation must have taken a significant dive and we might have to settle for something like half of what we paid for him. Not sure any Premiership club would be interested though. 

 

[martin1905]

7 hours ago, Bison said:

I've revised my opinion on Enzo quite a bit over the past year. There is no doubt he's a very capable passer but even that seems to have regressed somewhat.

I'm just not sure how we can function well as a team with a midfielder who can't run, doesn't defend well and doesn't score enough goals.

He isn't a #10 and Pochettino seemingly doesn't use him deeper in midfield due to his lack of legs and defensive ability.

So what's the plan moving forward?

He doesn't use him there because he's a fucking idiot.

Played last season as our most defensive midfielder and whilst I wouldn't use him there, on his own, was by far and away our best player.

He's literally built to play in a pivot, so is Caicedo.  Both very good, all round midfielders that can do a bit of everything. 

Caicedo and Enzo are the perfect pairing to play the double 6, they complement each other perfectly and ones strengths is the others weakness. It's not them that is the problem. If Tuchel had them together you would be seeing completely different players.

Not sure how one man could ruin the two so badly, it's almost impossible to get it so wrong. 

Edited January 11 by martin1905

[Dwmh]

3 hours ago, martin1905 said:

He doesn't use him there because he's a fucking idiot.

Played last season as our most defensive midfielder and whilst I wouldn't use him there, on his own, was by far and away our best player.

He's literally built to play in a pivot, so is Caicedo.  Both very good, all round midfielders that can do a bit of everything. 

Caicedo and Enzo are the perfect pairing to play the double 6, they complement each other perfectly and ones strengths is the others weakness. It's not them that is the problem. If Tuchel had them together you would be seeing completely different players.

Not sure how one man could ruin the two so badly, it's almost impossible to get it so wrong. 

Sure he is an idiot (Poch).  But Gallagher is best there too.  And Lavia too.
I quite like the way Gallagher and Fernandez swap roles at 2nd 6 and 8.

But for what ever reason, Fernandez is no longer starring in our team.  For the season and a half we have had class player after class player not performing well.  Hard to see whey Fernandez should be blamed for being one of so many underperforming.

[boratsbrother]

49 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

  For the season and a half we have had class player after class player not performing well.  Hard to see whey Fernandez should be blamed for being one of so many underperforming.

Who are all these "class players"who under performed for a year and a half?

Over that period we've had one player (Kante)  who'd won the league with us, and he was clearly past his best by the time he moved on. 

Chilly won it years ago with Leicester and Sterling in one of the greatest PL teams of all-time. 

Kante moved on. Chilly is constantly injured.. Sterling doesn't have world class players setting up tons of tap ins which boosted his goal tally.

Over the last 18 months we've had to rely on a near 40 year old and  lots of players who have proved absolutely nothing in the premier league. Those we let were players the vast majority on here wanted to go because they could see our squad had become very stale, going nowhere in the league and needed a rebuild. The fact the team isn't tearing things up doesn't mean the club was wrong to move on dead or rotting wood.

Besides, Palmer is not being ruined by Poch. Neither is Gallagher, Gusto, Petrovic, Silva. James would be doing fine if he was fit, so too Chilly if played as left back or wing back.  If those players are able to do thier job then so can the others of they are good enough.

[xceleryx]

10 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

The sensible way forward is to try and sell him before his valuation falls through the floor, as it will do if he stays and  plays like this. Already his valuation must have taken a significant dive and we might have to settle for something like half of what we paid for him. Not sure any Premiership club would be interested though. 

This ain't it I'm afraid. 

Sure, Enzo isn't quite hitting the heights many, including myself, expected of him this season but it's not necessarily because of his quality. He started the season rather strongly, but like with a lot of players who tend to get ran into the ground these days he's pretty much played constantly since moving to Europe. 18 months of solid football, which also includes a World Cup - where he won it, is going to take a toll on most players. Throw in a hernia situation, for which we don't really known just how long he's carried it for or the day to day impact it has in terms of training and match days.

His role has also been adjusted from essentially replacing Jorginho last season as the "holding" option, to one this season that has more freedom to get forward. While I don't always like just how far forward he gets in terms of virtually sitting on the edge of the box near the striker, in ways we've kinda had to accept that because unfortunately Gallagher, who tends to play that more advanced role, isn't necessarily great when it comes to ball control in tight spaces. Having Enzo in there at least gives us a player that has good close control and can pass, it does however limit some of what he can do in those deeper half spaces which he tended to occupy more last season and pre Chelsea.

Statically he still sits quite highly within the Premier League when compared to other midfielders in some key areas - progressive carries and passes, shots on target, his passing across short, medium and long ranges, passes into the final third and penalty box, shot-creating actions, etc. 

Not having much reliable width from the fullbacks and the stagnant movement upfront is going to hamper his effectiveness also, as it would do with most pass orientated players. Nonetheless he still needs to improve, but one can still still glimpse of his quality when he plays currently. The way he gets his head up early and scans ahead, his quick distribution where others tend to take 2-3 touches, and the way he moves to always be a presentable option for his teammates. All aspects that can be quite glossed over and ignored because they're not necessarily attractive traits that stand out.

I certainly wouldn't entertain the idea of selling him any time soon.

[martin1905]

9 hours ago, Dwmh said:

Sure he is an idiot (Poch).  But Gallagher is best there too.  And Lavia too.
I quite like the way Gallagher and Fernandez swap roles at 2nd 6 and 8.

But for what ever reason, Fernandez is no longer starring in our team.  For the season and a half we have had class player after class player not performing well.  Hard to see whey Fernandez should be blamed for being one of so many underperforming.

Personally I think Gallagher works best in a three man midfield as a box to box, ball winning midfielder. He can play as a 6 but he's wasted. I also think Caicedo and Enzo complement each other better. 

Very rarely have we seen Gallagher and Enzo in a double 6. If we play 4231 it's very much Caicedo plus one.

The problem we have is Gallagher and Enzo both play too high and Caicedo is completely isolated. Plus the fact that he is just not a holding player so not only is he being wasted it's tactical suicide. Which leads me back to my whole point, Enzo is playing far too high and is just not very good there. Playing further back he's world class, especially with the right partner, which we now have yet don't see them playing there together.

I understand the want and need to get Gallagher in the team, it's a necessity at the moment but not at the expense of everything else, shape wise and tactically.  Just play him as a 10 or even out wide. He will do his thing wherever he is, but we have two players to build a team around, both very young, two of the best young midfielders in the world who are absolutely perfect together yet both of them are being wasted and hence average, at best, under Pochettino. 

 

[Mark Kelly]

Just now, martin1905 said:

 

 Which leads me back to my whole point, Enzo is playing far too high and is just not very good there. Playing further back he's world class, especially with the right partner, which we now have yet don't see them playing there together.

 

 

The problem is that Enzo is on record as stating he wanted to play further forward , if I remember correctly he was practically demanding it .

It's another reason to boot Pochettino because he should be telling him that he cannot play further forward as he's actually a better player in a deeper role, but no , Poch lets him play where he likes in his uncoached clown show side.

[boratsbrother]

10 hours ago, xceleryx said:

This ain't it I'm afraid. 

Sure, Enzo isn't quite hitting the heights many, including myself, expected of him this season but it's not necessarily because of his quality. He started the season rather strongly, but like with a lot of players who tend to get ran into the ground these days he's pretty much played constantly since moving to Europe. 18 months of solid football, which also includes a World Cup - where he won it, is going to take a toll on most players. Throw in a hernia situation, for which we don't really known just how long he's carried it for or the day to day impact it has in terms of training and match days.

His role has also been adjusted from essentially replacing Jorginho last season as the "holding" option, to one this season that has more freedom to get forward. While I don't always like just how far forward he gets in terms of virtually sitting on the edge of the box near the striker, in ways we've kinda had to accept that because unfortunately Gallagher, who tends to play that more advanced role, isn't necessarily great when it comes to ball control in tight spaces. Having Enzo in there at least gives us a player that has good close control and can pass, it does however limit some of what he can do in those deeper half spaces which he tended to occupy more last season and pre Chelsea.

Statically he still sits quite highly within the Premier League when compared to other midfielders in some key areas - progressive carries and passes, shots on target, his passing across short, medium and long ranges, passes into the final third and penalty box, shot-creating actions, etc. 

Not having much reliable width from the fullbacks and the stagnant movement upfront is going to hamper his effectiveness also, as it would do with most pass orientated players. Nonetheless he still needs to improve, but one can still still glimpse of his quality when he plays currently. The way he gets his head up early and scans ahead, his quick distribution where others tend to take 2-3 touches, and the way he moves to always be a presentable option for his teammates. All aspects that can be quite glossed over and ignored because they're not necessarily attractive traits that stand out.

I certainly wouldn't entertain the idea of selling him any time soon.

Fair points!

However, for me the Enzo problem is exactly the same as the ones Jorginho 's. - their abilities do not compensate enough for their shortcomings as players. 

Enzo's serious lack of pace will always be a problem for us. He also isn't top notch as a defensive or creative player and problem which plagued us for years with Jorginho and Kova. 

If we're ever going to be a top team again we simply need more than what Enzo has to offer this team. Sadly though, I can see us waiting and waiting for years for us to accept this. 

[Dwmh]

12 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

Who are all these "class players"who under performed for a year and a half?

Over that period we've had one player (Kante)  who'd won the league with us, and he was clearly past his best by the time he moved on. 

Chilly won it years ago with Leicester and Sterling in one of the greatest PL teams of all-time. 

Kante moved on. Chilly is constantly injured.. Sterling doesn't have world class players setting up tons of tap ins which boosted his goal tally.

Over the last 18 months we've had to rely on a near 40 year old and  lots of players who have proved absolutely nothing in the premier league. Those we let were players the vast majority on here wanted to go because they could see our squad had become very stale, going nowhere in the league and needed a rebuild. The fact the team isn't tearing things up doesn't mean the club was wrong to move on dead or rotting wood.

Besides, Palmer is not being ruined by Poch. Neither is Gallagher, Gusto, Petrovic, Silva. James would be doing fine if he was fit, so too Chilly if played as left back or wing back.  If those players are able to do thier job then so can the others of they are good enough.

Bored with this apologetic stuff.
Look at who bought our class player and where they are playing.
Look at Mount, Havertz, Kovacic, Kepa, Jorginho and where they are playing now.

Simply put a 74 point team became a 44 point team overnight and is not much better now.
Anyone trying to blame individuals for that rather than something systemic is not making a serious point.

[boratsbrother]

32 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Bored with this apologetic stuff.
Look at who bought our class player and where they are playing.
Look at Mount, Havertz, Kovacic, Kepa, Jorginho and where they are playing now.

 

Mount has been awful at Utd.

Kepa has been making howlers and been dropped.

Jorginho is a bit part player in an Arsenal team who won't win anything this season.

Havertz is doing what he did for us and what he did for us wasn't good enough! 

Kova is a rotation player and hardly pulling up any trees at City.

 

Petrovic is a better keeper than Kepa and came here at a fraction of the price. Palmer is already a vastly batter player than Kova, Jorginho and Havertz ever were for us!

Azpi was well past it and needed replacing and we have a fine young talent in Gusto. Puli was given years to make it here but never fulfilled his early potential. 

I fully supported the board in moving out the players they did and also very happy with some of those bought in to replace them.  The only player I think we miss is Alonso, who would have been a better option than Cucu or Colwill at RB this season.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12 by boratsbrother

[Dwmh]

3 hours ago, boratsbrother said:

...........

74 point team turned into a 44 pont team and suddenly that proved all your pet theories that the players in the 74 point team were crap.
Isn't this rather revealing about your theories?  Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you believe all the current team are crap too?

[jasonb]

If you  look at is realistically 

We went from having two of the best wide backs and a decent back three , we now have one decent CB playing and one decent full back.

Palmer was never a replacement for Kova possibly Mount or CHO.

[Sciatika]

25 minutes ago, jasonb said:

Palmer was never a replacement for Kova possibly Mount or CHO.

I doubt they thought about transfers on a one-for-one basis. They were rebuilding from scratch and were looking for AMs with a range of skills that might dovetail with each other. That is, of course, assuming they thought about it. 😀

Edited January 12 by Sciatika

[boratsbrother]

What's hurt  us more than anything over the last 18 months is losing Rudi, Christensen and James & Chilly being constantly injured. None of that is the fault of the owners or managers!

Those four, along with Silva, was as good a group of defenders as any team in the league, plus we now have a decent keeper behind them. Had  we been able to keep that defence together we'd be challenging for 3rd or 4th this season.

We could easily already have a top four team and  with still so much room for improvement. Very frustrating thing to happen to us.

 

 

[jasonb]

No way around it due to the  uncertainty around the club due to RA's situation.

Other clubs might have folded.

[Dwmh]

19 minutes ago, jasonb said:

No way around it due to the  uncertainty around the club due to RA's situation.

Rudiger and Christensen - sure.  I tihink Christensen had signed a pre-contract in march, Rudiger just days after Clearlake signed up.
Christensen has 82 PL starts for us across 5 seasons.  17 in his last season.  Not a mission critical player.

 

20 minutes ago, jasonb said:

Other clubs might have folded.

What?  Folded?  Why on earth would that happen?  Loss of 2 CB?
Drop 5 points or so, sure.

Other clubs would not have folded.  We did.  Question is why.

[Ham]

1 hour ago, Dwmh said:

 

 

What?  Folded?  Why on earth would that happen?  Loss of 2 CB?
Drop 5 points or so, sure.

Other clubs would not have folded.  We did.  Question is why.

Loss of our owner and the shutting down of our income streams for a start.