VAR - The Great Debate

[paulw66]

15 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

But remove VAR now and everyone will be furious inside a month.
 

I doubt that. Real time mistakes can be excused.

Cheating by video cannot

[Dwmh]

20 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

I doubt that. Real time mistakes can be excused.

Cheating by video cannot

Real time mistakes get excused after decades of real time mistakes.
they won't after 5 years of VAR (even after 25 years of ex-pros in Sky tin boxes showing how hard VAR is even with the cameras).

The real questionaire should be to Championship fans.  Do you want VAR in the Championship?  I suspect they say yet - much like the Chelsea women's team fans that thought they got a rough deal because there was no VAR at a match with 3,500 attendance.

Asking neutrals whether they think VAR disrupts their TV viewing is not the right question.

[paulw66]

1 minute ago, Dwmh said:

Real time mistakes get excused after decades of real time mistakes.
they won't after 5 years of VAR (even after 25 years of ex-pros in Sky tin boxes showing how hard VAR is even with the cameras).

The real questionaire should be to Championship fans.  Do you want VAR in the Championship?  I suspect they say yet - much like the Chelsea women's team fans that thought they got a rough deal because there was no VAR at a match with 3,500 attendance.

Asking neutrals whether they think VAR disrupts their TV viewing is not the right question.

cryptic as ever.

nobody likes VAR. 

That's the end of it. 

[Dwmh]

2 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

cryptic as ever.

nobody likes VAR. 

That's the end of it. 

Ask a championship fan if they want VAR.  Pretty sure they will say yes.
Watch a match from 5 years ago - pretty sure you'll see 2 incidents that make you wild, and a lack of interest by the commentators.  

VAR does need tweaking, removing it would be a disaster, won't happen.

We have gone from offside being +/- 3 meters to +/- 30 cm
We have gone from 2 contentious decisions a game to 2 contentious decisions a weekend.

Going back would be stark staring crazy.
For once I don't blame the PMGOL, I blame the commentators.  

[paulw66]

Just now, Dwmh said:

Ask a championship fan if they want VAR.  Pretty sure they will say yes.
 

Nope.

You making things up 

[Dwmh]

 

8 minutes ago, paulw66 said:

8 minutes ago, Dwmh said:

Ask a championship fan if they want VAR.  Pretty sure they will say yes.

Nope.

You making things up 

Ask a Chelsea Ladies fan if they want VAR.  Not that many of their games are decided by just one odd goal.

[east lower]

1 hour ago, Dwmh said:

Ask a championship fan if they want VAR.  Pretty sure they will say yes.
Watch a match from 5 years ago - pretty sure you'll see 2 incidents that make you wild, and a lack of interest by the commentators.  

VAR does need tweaking, removing it would be a disaster, won't happen.

We have gone from offside being +/- 3 meters to +/- 30 cm
We have gone from 2 contentious decisions a game to 2 contentious decisions a weekend.

Going back would be stark staring crazy.
For once I don't blame the PMGOL, I blame the commentators.  

I have asked Southampton STH's that I know (5 in number). They have as recent a recall as there is of both the PL with VAR and the Championship without it.

To a man they all and unequivocally say games without VAR are by far and away a better spectacle and more enjoyable in the Championship without VAR. Of course they want to watch their team in the PL, but they despise the pregnant pause at goal celebrations, the waiting whilst 3 to 4 incompetents look for whatever it is they do look for and still there are incorrect decisions. 

Remember the slogan "Football is for the fans" - clearly bull-poop as the fans don't want it.

The authorities will provide their statistics that show we do, and we will all know it will be some uninvested set of people who sit at home and love a bit of drama, flicking between the football and their recorded episodes of Hollyoaks and Emmerdale.

Will it be canned? Not a hope - too much money at stake now. Should it be canned,  absobloodylutely. 

Perhaps the Mods could put a VAR poll up on here, just to get a feeling of a broad spectrum of people/fan types 

Edited February 8 by east lower

[east lower]

2 hours ago, paulw66 said:

It's a bit like COVID and the vaccines; have you ever met a fan who likes VAR?

Not yet 

[paulw66]

9 minutes ago, east lower said:

Not yet 

Me neither. It's awful. 

[JaneB]

Football set to hand referees a BLUE CARD - the first new colour of card to be widely used in 50 years - as part of revolutionary new rules | Daily Mail Online

Seems we are getting our very own cards now.

[chara]

38 minutes ago, JaneB said:

Football set to hand referees a BLUE CARD - the first new colour of card to be widely used in 50 years - as part of revolutionary new rules | Daily Mail Online

Seems we are getting our very own cards now.

😁,,, before I read the detalis I thought for a minute it meant a  Blue card in any game that had a bearing on Chelsea's position to make life more difficult than it already is at SB....or even cup opponents and/or for use in a Chelsea game when a yellow/red was too obviously biased.

An absolute cop out of an idea and so open to "misuse" ...what if it was a keeper?,,,,,the sub rule for injured keepers is quite sensible but if "binned" who would take over for ten minutes?..a temp sub?.....just ten minutes without an influential player completely changes the dynamics of a game,,,a need to switch "tactics" for ten minutes then switch back?....how many times in one game?...either yellow/red and be done with it..or maybe..just maybe...officials actually in control of the game regarding players behaviour?....instead of the feared "enforcer" teacher in the playground usually we see the weak put upon one...no character influence just the card for the "Go to see The Headmaster" fall back (Meant the cane in my dark ages school days,,administered by someone other than the coward!

As ever VAR is not the problem an unsighted ref will always miss something through no fault of his own..a bad foul off the ball etc...I'm sure I'm not the only person who has called out an incident as a dive or violent attack only to watch a replay and change my mind with a better view.

Offside has always been contentious and the obvious ones missed either way in the past generally get picked up as indeed do the sneaky "pro" fouls and hb's in the area but the microscopic offside decisions as we see now are what causes the real issues for fans,,,instead of foolish new card deliberations perhaps a fresh clear eyed review of what constitutes off side and sensible new guidlines or rule changes would be a better solution.

[Ham]

2 hours ago, Dwmh said:

 

Ask a Chelsea Ladies fan if they want VAR.  Not that many of their games are decided by just one odd goal.

I've only ever seen one ladies game where I thought they'd been robbed by the officials.

Real Madrid away this season. 

I'm not sure they'd want VAR purely because of one game. 

[martin1905]

The only people that matter with regards to VAR are the match going fans and I've yet to meet one that wouldn't get rid of it tomorrow. 

[My Blood Is Blue]

Poll added. 📊

[east lower]

10 hours ago, martin1905 said:

The only people that matter with regards to VAR are the match going fans and I've yet to meet one that wouldn't get rid of it tomorrow. 

I think that the ‘negative’ effects of VAR impact the match going fans probably more than the people who watch the game remotely, I have what some may call a jaundiced view in that regard. I could explain my rationale if challenged but it’s not for the here and now.

There’s lots wrong with VAR, there’s bits right, but for me the watering down of those moments of pure elation immediately after a goal is scored is enough.

As the fans of all affected clubs sing - 🎶it’s not football anymore 🎶 

The decision makers should put there, quite frankly, arrogant ‘we know best’ attitude in the bin and admit it spoils our game.

[My Blood Is Blue]

One of my mates is a Spurs fan (I know, I know!) and he went to the 4-1 demolition at the hands of the mighty Blues, but he said he took his son and it was the worst Matchday experience he’s ever had and it had nothing to do with the result or scoreline. He said that the constant VAR stoppages with absolutely no explanation to the fans in the ground was horrendous, as they had so many of them and they were taking so long, nobody had a clue what was happening and why. Then added to that, all the stoppage time that had to be added on in each half, meant that they didn’t get home until stupid o’clock in the morning on a Monday night.

Im sure the result didn’t help, but the point still stands that for those in the stadium, VAR as it is currently used is crap! But it isn’t designed for them, sadly.

[BalhamBoy]

Have voted in the poll that I hate it and want it scrapped for the simple reason that it has stolen from me that instantaneous visceral moment of joy when we score (or get awarded a pen). I now only half-heartedly celebrate knowing it may be chalked off, and the subsequent pleasure if the goal is confirmed is never as intense.

Football was invented by humans (not through video game AI-generated programming). Humans are imperfect and make mistakes, football was a product of that. Players make mistakes, refs and linos make mistakes- all part of the rich tapestry….and all that. That simpleness is what appeals. The increasingly clinical and precise and exact and  overly contemplated dish we are now served  just isn’t as tasty.

[Bert19]

18 hours ago, paulw66 said:

nobody likes VAR. 

That's the end of it. 

Not sure I agree there tbh.  I think most people don't like how the PL is using the VAR system and the inconsistencies provided by inept/arrogant/corrupt officials (delete option to suit what you believe personally).   

I think it works pretty well in the CL, Euros, World Cup etc when it's used consistently and with clear guidelines. 

And the lack of info / long pauses for fans in the stadiums can be addressed easily too.  Speak to them! 

[paulw66]

 

1 hour ago, My Blood Is Blue said:

One of my mates is a Spurs fan (I know, I know!) and he went to the 4-1 demolition at the hands of the mighty Blues, but he said he took his son and it was the worst Matchday experience he’s ever had and it had nothing to do with the result or scoreline. He said that the constant VAR stoppages with absolutely no explanation to the fans in the ground was horrendous, as they had so many of them and they were taking so long, nobody had a clue what was happening and why. Then added to that, all the stoppage time that had to be added on in each half, meant that they didn’t get home until stupid o’clock in the morning on a Monday night.

Im sure the result didn’t help, but the point still stands that for those in the stadium, VAR as it is currently used is crap! But it isn’t designed for them, sadly.

I had two mates in the Palace end at SB in December, and they were saying the fans who got their phones out, knew it was a Chelsea penalty before everyone else. Ludicrous.

 

Edited February 9 by paulw66

[paulw66]

2 minutes ago, Bert19 said:

Not sure I agree there tbh.  I think most people don't like how the PL is using the VAR system and the inconsistencies provided by inept/arrogant/corrupt officials (delete option to suit what you believe personally).   

I think it works pretty well in the CL, Euros, World Cup etc when it's used consistently and with clear guidelines. 

And the lack of info / long pauses for fans in the stadiums can be addressed easily too.  Speak to them! 

you might be right, but the fact it is used poorly, means nobody likes it.

One of my biggest bugs is the goals disallowed by 2 inches, when it could be a shoulder or knee cap, which had no bearing on the situation.

[Bert19]

1 minute ago, paulw66 said:

you might be right, but the fact it is used poorly, means nobody likes it.

One of my biggest bugs is the goals disallowed by 2 inches, when it could be a shoulder or knee cap, which had no bearing on the situation.

Agree with you on both points here though. 

Them introducing the idea of "clear and obvious error" then ignoring those in favour of spending 3 minutes checking if a body part you can't score with is a centimetre offside or not really has devalued the whole system. 

Use it properly (like how Hawkeye is used) and I don't think fans will have problems with it in the PL any more. 

[Mark Kelly]

The offside rule was originally brought in to stop literal goal hanging where a striker would just hover around the area looking for goal scoring opportunities and the disparity of what it was brought on for and what it means now is at the heart of the VAR debate where you can be offside if your toe or shoulder is in front of your marker. 

The offside law needs revising and simplifying so that a player is clearly offside not marginally. 

[paulw66]

36 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The offside rule was originally brought in to stop literal goal hanging where a striker would just hover around the area looking for goal scoring opportunities and the disparity of what it was brought on for and what it means now is at the heart of the VAR debate where you can be offside if your toe or shoulder is in front of your marker. 

The offside law needs revising and simplifying so that a player is clearly offside not marginally. 

Yes, they have completely lost sight of what the law is there for.

I know it sounds wooly, but there should, in my opinion, be far more leniency the further away from goal. If someone is a few inches offside on the wing, near the halfway line, this is not the same as being slightly offside on the edge of the 6 yard box, poking home a cross. 

[Dwmh]

30 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The offside rule was originally brought in to stop literal goal hanging where a striker would just hover around the area looking for goal scoring opportunities and the disparity of what it was brought on for and what it means now is at the heart of the VAR debate where you can be offside if your toe or shoulder is in front of your marker. 

The offside law needs revising and simplifying so that a player is clearly offside not marginally. 

Clearly 20cm offside but not marginally 18cm off side I take it.

Right now we have furthest forward scoring part of strikers body to furthest forward scoring part or defenders body.
Clear Daylight would presumably mean furthest forward to furthest back and the same issues.

I don't see how any new ruling makes the VAR decision making process any quicker or accurate or less prone to arguments.
Except of course the VAR team have to decide within 2 secs and they cant' be over ruled (which is the same as the lino making the decision old style).

[Dwmh]

58 minutes ago, Mark Kelly said:

The offside rule was originally brought in to stop literal goal hanging where a striker would just hover around the area looking for goal scoring opportunities

Quote

When was the offside rule introduced?

The offside rule was introduced in 1863 by the then newly formed Football Association (FA), stating that a player is offside unless three players from the opposing team are in front of him. This rule was changed in 1925, reducing the number of opposing players required to be in front from 3 to 2 players. In 1990, this rule evolved again into what we know today as the modern version. This change stated that a player is considered onside if he is level with the second to last opposing player.

1863 was about the time that the rules were first being consolidated, so 3 in front was the the first consistent football rules.  Prior to that different clubs played different rules.  Kind of like Pool in the 1970s where every Pub seemed to have different rules.

So yes the intention of the originial rule was to pre-empt goal hanging.
The changes in 1925 (2 men) and 1990 (level, not in front) actually encourage "goal hanging"  though they no doubt claimed they encouraged goals and attractive football.